How to Make Difficult Career Decisions, with Ellen Sullivan & Dr Nora Koslowski
Get EVEN Podcast | Difficult Career Decisions | Dr Nora Koslowski | Ellen Sullivan
Career decisions are rarely as simple as ‘stay or go’.
Most of us like to believe that the biggest career decisions become obvious when the time comes. A promotion. A new role. A career change. A secondment. Starting a business.
In reality, the opposite is often true. Career decisions are messy, they can feel muddled, they’re confusing!
So we want you to know that the decisions that shape our careers are not really going to feel easy or obvious. They’re usually the ones that leave us feeling uncertain. Should I stay with a difficult manager? Should I accept the opportunity, even if I'm not sure I can succeed? Am I ready for something new, or am I simply restless?
In this episode of Get EVEN, EVEN Careers co-founders Dr Nora Koslowski and Ellen Sullivan unpack three real career questions submitted by listeners and share practical frameworks for navigating difficult career decisions with greater confidence and a sense of calm, rather than panic.
If you're a mid-career woman navigating leadership and career decisions, you’ll want to know three key ideas from the conversation:
1. Most career decisions aren't binary
One of the biggest traps we see in career coaching is binary thinking.
Should I stay or should I leave?
Should I apply or should I wait?
Should I accept the promotion or turn it down?
When we're stressed or uncertain, our brains naturally simplify complex situations into two competing options. But that often causes us to overlook better alternatives.
For example, if you're struggling with your manager, leaving may not be the only solution. Could you build stronger relationships elsewhere in the organisation? Move into another team? Have a conversation that resets expectations? Stay for six months while preparing your next move?
Our key tip: Broaden your possibilities by moving from "What should I choose?" to "What options haven't I considered yet?".
2. Don't let fear make the decision for you
One listener asked whether they should accept a secondment that could accelerate their career, despite worrying they might fail. It's a question many ambitious women recognise. Fear deserves attention, but it shouldn't have the deciding vote.
In the episode, Nora introduces the idea of "playing big", inspired by Tara Mohr's work. Rather than allowing fear to drive our decisions, we can acknowledge that it’s there, but engage more substantially with what we actually want. What are our aspirations, our goals, our dreams? And can we devote more attention and energy to going aftert those, rather than all our energy on having an internal dialogue with our fears?
3. The best career decisions start with knowing yourself
Many people approach career decisions by asking what they should do. But "should" is often someone else's definition of success. Instead, the conversation explores a different starting point: understanding your own values, motivations and ambitions before evaluating the available options.
The episode also introduces EVEN's Decision-Making Framework (E.V.E.N.), a practical process designed to help women navigate complex career choices:
Evaluate: Clarify what matters most to you and the values guiding your decision.
Visualise: Generate multiple options rather than settling for two.
Explore: Talk through your thinking with trusted people who genuinely want you to succeed.
Net Results: Consider what could go right, what could go wrong, and how each option might play out over the months and years ahead.
Heads up: There may never be a perfect career decision. But there are thoughtful, intentional decisions that align with the life and career you want to build.
Listen to Dr Nora Koslowski and Ellen Sullivan's latest episode of the Get EVEN podcast
Video Transcript
Nora (00:08)
Welcome back to EVEN Today it's a co-founder chat. I'm Dr. Nora Koslowski and Ellen Sullivan, the other co-founder of EVEN is here with me as well. We can't wait to have a chat through some of your career ask me anything, if that's the correct term for that. But We've got some live questions that you sent in to the podcast, and these are actually very similar to some of the questions that we hear in our community.
of ambitious women again and again. So we can't wait to give you our advice and our perspective on how we would handle some of these common career questions. Ellen, what are you looking forward to today?
Ellen (00:43)
Absolutely.
I'm just looking forward to doing what I think we do best, right? Which is looking at real challenges, having real answers to them and strategies that very smart, clever, ambitious women want to use. the system needs to change at the same time. We know ambitious women are going to want to still progress their careers and still make changes to their lives and their leadership. So then let's look at some strategies.
that work for women.
Nora (01:13)
Amazing. All right. So we're going to take a bit of time for for some of these more complex questions. And they're all about career decisions. They're about moving into a different role, perhaps. Or I think some of the questions can also be described as as, you know, when you're feeling stuck and and you're kind of looking at what are my options here in career? So let's have a look at the first one
Ellen (01:36)
so
the first one is I'm not getting on with my leader. Should I stay or should I go? Good question. One
that comes up a lot. and I don't think it it's also it's a question that everyone, no matter how you identify, understands this question, this challenge, this tension.
Nora (01:59)
Should I stay or should I go? And I I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times that somebody comes to us with that question. And I feel like they're just hoping that we would give them the magic answer, but really the answers are actually already inside you. What we're here to do is we're gonna give you some ways to evaluate what your different options look like and perhaps also to dig into what is actually going on beyond just that, you know, articulation of I'm not getting on with my leader. That often, you know, that's a that's a symptom.
And so maybe let's start with that first before we go into the decision.
Ellen (02:31)
what is the dysfunction that's happening? Like what is and how bad is it? I'm not getting on my with my leader can be across an entire spectrum of I'm not getting on with them. It can be where they're like actively sabotaging you, and some really terrible things could be happening. Or the vibes just aren't good.
The vibes, we just, we haven't clicked. It's, you know, there's still work getting done, but we're not, we're not quite there. and so when I'm not getting on with my leader, what would a good relationship look like for what you want for your career right now and what you need for your work?
And then what would a thriving relationship look like for
Nora (03:14)
I
Ellen (03:14)
your career and the work that you're doing? So like there's there there's I mean, I hate it when people go, well, it depends on the context. So I'm not gonna say that. I'm gonna
Nora (03:22)
Yeah.
Ellen (03:23)
say, I'm gonna say, you know, what is that level of dysfunction?
Nora (03:27)
Yeah.
Ellen (03:28)
Is it repairable? and it sounds like there's some exploration that's required to understand how how bad that might be.
Nora (03:36)
But I also like what you're effectively doing is you're taking it away from that statement of I'm not getting on with my leader to actually asking what would good look like for a relationship between a leader and a direct report and what would thriving look like. And
Ellen (03:50)
Mm-hmm.
Nora (03:50)
then I think, you know, what one of the things that we can confuse is that we want to have great vibes with our leader, but actually a good relationship could be
Productive, it could be challenging, it could be helping you to grow. Doesn't mean that it's always gonna feel like great vibes and that you're gonna be friends because that maybe is not the right expectation for a good working relationship with your leader. So I love that advice of start with what does a good relationship look like? So what are some of those attributes underneath that, you know, that might and they might be different for each person. So it could be a good relationship with your leader looks like
They help you to learn. They give you access to opportunities. They are there to support you. Whatever that might look like for you. Some of us, you know, prefer to have somebody who's challenging, others prefer a bit more nurturing, but just getting a bit of clarity around what that looks like, I think, is is really good. And then the thriving is sort of like that's taking it up to like an even better level. But the good, I think, are are your kind of basic requirements.
And if your relationship with your leader doesn't meet any of them, I think that's when you kind of go, okay, let's start by asking some deeper questions around what's going on here. Is this like, have we got off on the wrong foot? Maybe we haven't started with some expectations of how we want to work together. Or is this something where maybe I've actually contributed to a dysfunction to some degree in my own behavior? Or is there something that your leader has done? But I think that start with that, you know, what do you actually think it looks like? And then go a bit deeper.
To see what might be going on.
Ellen (05:25)
And I think then the the other part of this question is should I stay or should I go? And
Nora (05:29)
Hm.
Ellen (05:30)
for me, it's kind of are those the only options. So if it has got to the point where they are, you know, actively sabotaging you and it is not what good looks like for you from a manager, sure you can go, but you don't have to jump straight away. You can think about how you how you go in a way that works for you.
and then if you stay, does stay have to be that every single box is being ticked? Or is and do you have to stay forever? Probably not. You you can actually think about staying for a period of time and and doing what you need to get done in that time. So could you stay and grow your relationships with a different department to start seeing other managers over there that I really like? Could you
Nora (06:16)
Yeah.
Ellen (06:17)
stay and form really strong kind of peer relationships that you know will advocate for you when you're going on kind of your next role hunt. It's instead of thinking about the binary is it is it stay and just head down and just grip on and hope I can get there.
Nora (06:34)
Rip on.
Ellen (06:35)
I can do this. I can turn up every single day. Or is it it you know and it doesn't have to be I'm just gonna walk out the door, I'm gonna
Quit, I'm just gonna get out of here. is there a bit more nuance? Is there more options on the table between those?
Nora (06:49)
Yep.
A hundred percent agree. And I think this is, you know, whoever sent in that that question, this is actually something that we see in our community quite often when women are talking with each other, but we also see it when personal questions come to us as founders of EVEN Is it's often that very like you're in that.
territory of you feel threatened, it's not going well. And that often leads you to a narrowing of your perspective and it leads you to these binary choices of should I stay or go. But actually I think our role here in running a career development business is actually helping you to to open up what are all of the possible things that that you could do here. And I love how you've articulated some of them. So you know is another option rather than just stay or go, is it talk to another team?
Is it move into a different function? And ultimately whoever is in that scenario, they will have to come up with their own options because they will look different for every person. But I think it's just the temptation, and w we've all been there, right? Like we I think we've all had experiences of working with a leader where it's not great. And it just feels like you just want to get out of it and you want somebody to almost go, you'll be fine, like just leave. The reality is we're not always gonna be able to choose.
Who we work with. And if that's your pattern of I'm just gonna, you know, just gonna run from this situation, you might actually be, you know, next role, next organization. The likelihood is you're gonna encounter somebody that you're not thriving or vibing with. And that might not be your leader, it could be a peer, it could be a direct report. So just running from that is probably not the most productive response rather than just going, okay, really think about those options and then also go,
Are these options aligned with what I want out of my career or what I want out of this role? I I think that's a a bit more of a a calmer perspective than than just locking yourself into these binary choices.
Ellen (08:46)
And like one manager is also just not gonna be able to give you everything you need as well. There are those fantastic managers out there, but they're few and far between. you can go your whole career kind of hunting for them. and so that's that's also kind of a way to maybe give I mean if they're not being a dickhead, if if if they are just kind of not making your working life thriving.
then I guess it's just give them a maybe there's some reasons why they're also the the relationship's not there. Maybe they haven't got the capability, maybe they're just not very aware, maybe they're too busy, maybe they haven't done the work themselves. If that's the case, there will most certainly be people out there who can help you in thinking about your career, who can help you in thinking about your development and and what you want.
Nora (09:35)
that also because you're you're again you're de-risking and you're not making yourself dependent on this this one person. Move on. Okay,
Ellen (09:40)
Next question, Nora. Let's get into it. Okay.
so the next one I think that we should focus on is I've got this secondment and it's I I I really think it's gonna accelerate my career. but I'm so like I'm scared about if I can succeed, if I might fail. that's a question that we're hear about kind of
It's a question when we're working with such incredible women all the time, that
Nora (10:07)
Mm.
Ellen (10:08)
comes up, right? Because they are getting those opportunities. They are looking to progress their career. But the concern is, what happens if I fail?
Nora (10:16)
What if I fail? So I'm hearing
two things in that question that I'd like to unpack. The first one is the the issue, or actually the like the amazing opportunity of there's a possibility here, right? There's a possibility of advancing, there's a possibility of learning something new. Let's I I want to unpack that a bit because I think, you know, rather than just dealing with the second thing, which is the fear of failure, I think it's actually worth looking at both of those in a bit more detail. So
There's the feeling that this person has about the opportunity and then there's the opportunity itself. what about you? What are your like how do you want to address the question?
Ellen (10:53)
my instant gut reaction is I think it's a really smart move to think about what could go wrong, but I think that's only half of the equation. What could also go right?
Nora (11:05)
Hmm.
Ellen (11:06)
And then how can you overindex on maybe helping those things go right?
Nora (11:10)
Yeah.
Ellen (11:10)
and so it's kind of it's it's half of a a question. And I think when someone thinks critically
and deeply about what could happen for their career, you have to think of of both sides. You have to think about what could go wrong, but you also have to think about what could go right.
Nora (11:28)
Yeah, and that's a great reminder because I think quite often we are prone to thinking about the worst case scenario and and leading with just protecting ourselves rather than actually seeing the opportunity. so at EVEN we we typically we support women with some frameworks that help in making these tricky career decisions. And I'm wondering whether we want to go into the EVEN decision-making framework here as a way to actually evaluate that opportunity of a second. And you know, you might be listening to this today, and your decision is not a secondment.
But it's actually something else. It's it could be a step up, or it could be that somebody's offered you a job in a different city and you just don't quite know what to do with it. so I think it's worth just chatting through that process in as short a time as we possibly can.
Ellen (12:12)
E, V, E, N. Like that's the decision-making framework. just to be really, really obvious about it. So the first step is evaluate. Second is visualize. The third is explore. And the the N is net results. So those are the four steps. It's also can be a fast process. I think if you've probably already done a lot of the thinking about all the different options.
You might get through that decision-making framework quite quickly, but it is something that might take you a week, it might take you two weeks, it might take you a month.
Nora (12:48)
Yeah.
Ellen (12:48)
It's designed to flex to what you need it to do and help you think deeply and critically about this hard decision that you're looking at.
Nora (12:59)
Yeah, so the first step is actually to go, what do I want? What are my values
Ellen (13:04)
I see.
Nora (13:05)
when it comes to my career, my work, my life? So let's imagine for me a value might be learning and growth is super important to me. And therefore you might actually then lay that decision of this secondment next to does this align with my values? So that's a really sort of simple way to start, and that's E evaluate.
Ellen (13:26)
the second one V is for visualize. And this is all about visualizing those options. So thinking, making sure you step away and it's not the binary options, but starting to think about all those different options of what could occur and what you could do for this decision around your secondment and thinking about trying to like
Test yourself. Can I get three? Can I get four? Could I get five options? If you want to, you know, get a gold star for effort, you could go and do like 10 different options so that then you can actually whittle it down to the ones that actually work for you. Just have that have that freedom to go, what could be all the options here? Visualize them.
Nora (14:11)
Amazing. So evaluate, visualize. E the next E is explore. So this is where you actually say this decision or your dilemma out loud and you explore it with others that are in your
Ellen (14:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Nora (14:23)
trusted network. So that could be you might have a personal board of directors that you want to chat this through with. It could be your partner at home. But really I would say explore this with somebody who has your best interests at heart.
not somebody who is sort of projecting and giving you advice of what they wish they could do, really somebody who thinks about what might be best for your development and your growth.
Ellen (14:49)
And then that last step, net results, and this is my favorite one because I think it also has that connotation of like what are the what are the what are the economic results and that's what we're all about. Anyway, net results is all about exactly what I was saying at the start around what could go right with this decision and what could go wrong. And you do that to the certain level of detail that works for you.
so you might only want to think about, you know, two or three things that could go wrong and two or three things that could go right, but you can again go quite broad. and then you also start thinking about, well, what does this look like over time horizons? What are the net results over time horizons for the things that might go wrong and the things that might go right? Because I think a lot of us can think about time horizons in kind of like that less than six months.
Nora (15:43)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen (15:44)
then actually what happens when it plays out over 12 months, over 24 months? What kind of change is there? And when you're thinking about it more in a long form way, it can be a lot easier to see the benefits. So that that's the that's the the N in the even decision making framework.
Nora (16:04)
Net results. There you have it. E V E N decision making framework. So that might be one thing that could help you as you're making a career decision. The second thing that we haven't talked about yet with this question was the fear that our listener has around fear failure. And I we do talk about fear quite a bit in some of our masterclasses. but there's a few things that I would say around this.
fear of failure for for the person who's experiencing that. So the first concept that I would introduce here is the notion of playing big. So there's a beautiful book that we often draw on by by Tara Mohr called Playing Big. And really playing big means that you choose to lead with what you want. So your dreams and the things that you actually are driving towards in your life and career rather than leading with your fears.
And so here the you know the question for for that person in the situation really is are you letting your fear be in the driving seat of that decision versus is this more aligned with your values? And so, yes, discomfort is real. We've all been there. it feels like it can be overwhelming to deal with that fear, but just stepping back and going.
What's the place from which I'm coming at this decision from? And is fear going to be the thing that's actually going to guide me into a wise decision rather than is it holding me back and and sort of keeping me small?
Ellen (17:25)
I love that. I I think it's yeah, there's two really practical strategies there, right? The even decision making framework and then how to how to play big by Tara Mohr all right.
one more question. What what one have we got, Nora?
Nora (17:39)
let me have a look. there were quite a few that came in, so just choosing this next one. again, this is about a decision, and it's I would say this is more about kind of it's not fear, it's confusion, and we see confusion quite a bit as well. I don't know what the next step is, so I feel ready for my next step, but I just can't seem to figure out what it is. So should I go with the path and gun for the next role up?
So that's my leader's role. So you might the person might know that maybe their leader is moving on to something else. Should they just try to replace their leader? Or should I actually, should I move outside of what I'm doing, what I've been doing for for a few years, it says here, and move into another function altogether to prioritize learning. what do you think?
Ellen (18:22)
Well, I mean, that's a big question, right?
Love how I'm the first one out to respond to this. And it it is. It's you know, in mid career, right? We've been working so hard, we're high achieving, and we've done all those the box ticking exercises. And it gets to that point where you're like, Well, actually, what do I want? What do I want? What do I want my career to be? and so like for me.
It would be around thinking about kind of what is the career frustration you might be having or a small desire or something that's almost just feels like a bit of a hunch.
Nora (18:57)
Mm.
Ellen (18:58)
Because that's that's telling you something. and it might be telling you your wildest dreams. It might be, hey, do you think you could run your own business one day?
was mine. I wish I could that was that was mine and then yeah we jumped in.
yeah what is that hunch? What is that frustration? What's that desire? That's going to give you some real interesting data to start with about you know what are those different steps you could take.
Nora (19:27)
Yep. I really agree with that. And I think building on your your hunch to the question is I would encourage our listeners to actually to listen more deeply to to what is within you. Because even the way the question is phrased is very externalized, right? It's should I? And the should tells me that, you know, you you're probably showing up to this question with some external expectations that may or may not be conscious.
So we all grow up, whether that's in our family, in our schooling, in our peer groups, wherever we've worked before, we grow up with these certain career stories, career paths, and visions of what success looks like that are not necessarily ours. and often we've never sat down and challenged what success or what career looks like from our perspective, rather than just you know comparing ourselves to others. So
The encouragement to go with your hunch or with your, you know, what is that desire that kind of is whispering in your ear, I think is really important here. And one of the ways that you could do that if you're if you're finding yourself in that kind of scenario, the same as our listener, is to start by looking at future scenarios, future selves. So this is a methodology we use that's based on the work of Professor Herminia Ibara.
Who's written the beautiful book, Working Identity? And what I love is that, so it's a book about stories of career change and career experiences. And what I love about it is that her work really helps us to dig into the feelings that career options elicit in us. So even just asking that question to yourself, you know, promotion, what what what are the feelings that that elicits in you? Does it elicit excitement?
Does it elicit fear? Fear is not necessarily bad. We've just talked about it. does it elicit a sort of ugh don't really, don't really love that? You know, what is it? same with the learning aspect. Should I move to a different function? What, you know, what do you think you would feel like day in, day out if you imagine being in that function? And of course, if you don't have data to go on to to actually give rise to the feelings, then it might be
Ellen (21:36)
Yes.
Nora (21:38)
time to to go out and get some. Like what does it look like in that function? So
but yeah, the encouragement is to to really think about what are your personal feelings underneath that decision and and really try to separate what you might have taken in from others to to what you actually want.
Ellen (21:55)
And working that out and doing that work can help you then make some decisions. I think it is gonna be a bit of a slower process to work out what you want when you've probably got a lot of complexity going on in your life.
Nora (22:09)
Mm.
Ellen (22:10)
and you probably have lots of different things kind of going
You should do this, you should do that, or you can't do this. we've got that need that bill needs to be paid, or the mortgage needs to be that like there's there's lots of different things coming at you. and the only way to be able to navigate through that is to know, well, what do I want? what are my non negotiables? and what are what am I feeling? What am I feeling? and and and that can be that can be confronting, but very, very worthwhile.
Nora (22:38)
Yeah. And I'm actually I'm interested in your opinion on this. I do wonder. So my sense is when you're in decisions like that is to actually evaluate your options simultaneously rather than
kind of sequentially really go deep on each option individually because I think you need to kind of weigh them up against each other. So I'm not sure if you're if you're comfortable sharing this, but you know, when we both made that decision to become founders of even, both of us were actually were evaluating our adjacent options. So, you know, it could be like stay in an organization and go for a different role. It could be, you know, both of us were in processes for other roles. And really using that data, that information that the processes yielded to
to then make an informed choice about at this point in my career, at this point in my personal life.
At this point in, you know, how do I want to remember my career, being in mid-career, really then going, okay, if I if I weigh up all of the options, what comes out tops for me? so my encouragement is to to not even just look at two options for the listener here, but are there even further options you can add into that mix? Because it just helps you to elicit more and more information and and reactions to those, to that information.
Ellen (23:44)
I had to I actually had to use a numbering system. I
Nora (23:48)
You use a numbering system?
Ellen (23:50)
I had my options and I had all my data. And I mean I don't know how to like like I I would think it's probably more through a project management lens and an operational lens, which you know, I love that stuff. Systems, love systems, go for systems, create systems. And the system that I was setting up was I had like I had 10 different criteria.
against every option and then I evaluated them out of 10. and whilst I was, you know, I I have a problem with authority, especially against myself. And so even if those options had you know, if one option had come out better than the others, I still wasn't gonna let it like make the decision for me. But it was just that I felt like I had really done the work in working out well what was the next step for me.
And then I'd fully accepted what could go right and what could go wrong.
Nora (24:42)
Yeah. I'm not gonna ask you what was in those ten criteria, but I am super curious.
Ellen (24:45)
I can't remember now.
I it's something I should have kept, but it was on a piece of A 4 It was very scrappy and coffee stained by the time I'd finished with it. And it did its
Nora (24:55)
Yeah.
Ellen (24:55)
job and I made the right decision.
Nora (24:57)
Yeah, amazing. No need to overcomplicate it all the time either. I think just, you know, pick one of these methodologies that we've we've chatted through today, see what works for you. but yeah, three questions. I think we went quite deep in in just, you know, under 30 minutes. if you've got other questions that you want us to tackle next season, please send them in. So it doesn't have to be about career decisions. other questions that I know we'll explore in the future are about things like burnout, about biased experiences at work.
About developing your leadership capability. So keep sending us your questions on all of these topics when it comes to career leadership and life.
Ellen (25:33)
Thanks everyone. Thanks, Nora.
Nora (25:34)
Thank you.