What no one tells you about confidence, with Ellen Sullivan & Dr Nora Koslowski
Get EVEN Podcast | Dr Nora Koslowski | Ellen Sullivan | Confidence
What if confidence isn’t the thing holding women back at work?
In this episode of the Get EVEN podcast, “What No One Tells You About Confidence”, EVEN founders Ellen Sullivan and Dr Nora Koslowski unpack one of the most persistent narratives in women’s careers: “I just need to be more confident.”
But what if the issue is more complex than that?
Together, Ellen and Nora explore the difference between confidence, self-esteem and self-efficacy, and why these distinctions matter so much for women navigating leadership, career growth and ambition at work.
This episode goes beyond surface-level confidence advice to examine the systems and workplace dynamics that shape self-doubt in the first place. From the double bind women leaders experience, to the ways organisations can reward overconfidence over competence, this is a conversation about leadership, power, identity and the stories many women carry about themselves at work.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
why self-efficacy matters more than “feeling confident”
how confidence is shaped by context, feedback and workplace culture
the difference between confidence and capability
why women in leadership are often judged differently
how the leadership double bind works in practice
practical strategies to challenge self-doubt and imposter phenomenon
how to build an internal “cheerleader” or fierce mentor voice
why creating a “reality folder” can help counter negative self-talk
why women don’t need fixing, and why systemic change matters alongside individual action
This episode is for women navigating mid-career growth, leadership progression, executive presence, career confidence and the complexity of ambition at work.
If you’ve ever thought:
“I’m not confident enough.”
“I need to back myself more.”
“Everyone else seems more certain than me.”
“Why does confidence seem to matter more than competence?”
…this conversation is for you.
Video Transcript
Ellen (00:54)
All right, let's do it. Let's chat about confidence. Let's chat about all the exciting things that come into this confidence aspect for women and whether, and like, I really, really, really want to bust some of those myths that are out there because I think it's a brush that's just swiped over everything a lot.
when it comes to women, their careers and their leadership. So I'm looking forward to kind of sweeping away some of those myths. And then of course, always looking at.
Always looking at what a woman can be taking on and what just to leave to the side. What about you?
Nora (01:37)
Yeah.
So I'm looking forward to kind of going a bit deeper and
separating some of those, like you said, confidence myths from the practical steps where you can sort of, there are things you can do on your own, but there is also very much a structural and a systemic reality to this. And I want to bring some evidence into this to actually say, you know what, like women, this is not a problem of your making. It's not your fault. It's not your responsibility just to be more confident in the world.
There's a very good reason why we've arrived at the point that we're at where we seem to have an issue of confidence, but it's actually it's very much something that has happened through how we're raised, how we're socialised into organisations and how we're socialised into our gender. so I really I want to grapple with that tension of individual versus what's happening in society today.
Ellen (02:28)
Hmm.
Nora (02:29)
The myth that I want to bust is that confidence is this general thing that you either have or you don't. And you've known me for six years, right? We've worked together for six years.
Would you say in that time that I've come across as confident in our work together?
Ellen (02:43)
No, I think you seem you seem like super confident in especially from like a self esteem perspective, but also from confidence in your abilities. But I would say where the strength really came through was confidence in your leadership abilities. So
you know, when we were working together, it was always that what I thought was one of your massive strengths was that you were very fair and measured as a leader. And you could see that you were actually really confident in that kind of leadership capability as well.
Nora (03:19)
The first thing I would say is confidence is something that we learn over time. And the actual definition of confidence, I want to take back to
the domain of social psychology, where confidence is actually defined as a degree of self-efficacy. So a belief that you can do a certain thing. And so for me, had you asked me, do you feel confident, I wouldn't be able to give you a sort of blanket yes or no. It would be, do you believe that you can lead a team in a fair and measured way? Yes, I have self-efficacy. Do you believe that you have the
Ellen (03:51)
capabilities to do the same.
Nora (03:53)
confidence that
you can show up with a high degree of, I don't know what it is, calmness or measuredness or whatever it is, I would be able to say, yes, I can, because that's a separating a specific skill from a generalised sense of is this person confident or not? And so I would not say I'm a confident person full stop. So I think that's the first level of pressure we need to actually take off women and take off individuals. You don't have to think about confidence as something that you just walk around with all the time and you've been born with it.
And if you're not one those lucky ones that has it, you're never going to attain that standard of confidence perfection. think that's actually just bullshit.
Ellen (04:32)
Yeah, I I think the way you're thinking about, you know, the self-efficacy, it's like, what's her name? Ginka Toegel I think is how you say her name. And she has written a book called The Confidence Myth, specifically written, you know, to talk about these myths in regards to women's confidence. And I really like how she creates this four different types,
Four different confidence
concepts,
which I think like really really help because it helps you identify What's going on like exactly what you were talking about, right? It's not just that overall confidence bucket And she talks about it as this this confidence your overall trust But then there's self-confidence There's self-esteem and then there's self-efficacy
Nora (05:20)
I want you to break all of those down for our audience.
Ellen (05:23)
Self-efficacy is exactly how you described it, right? It's the confidence in your ability to do tasks and those capabilities. And so you can, like you were describing, like you can feel super confident as a leader in different capabilities. The self-esteem is going a little bit more to that, well, it is going to your identity and in how you feel about your own self-worth.
Nora (05:49)
Mmm.
Ellen (05:50)
Self-confidence is really about thinking about your confidence in regards to your decisions and in regards to your judgments. But then confidence overall is that trust, that feeling you can create. And I just really like it because instead of that just that big bucket of what is confidence, it breaks it down and helps the individual identify what may be going on for them and maybe also helps them separate.
any other feedback they might be getting as well. So it creates that empowerment, for somebody.
Nora (06:26)
I love that. And I think we need to actually talk about that, separating your own knowledge and your own level of trust in your capability, your self-esteem, self-worth, separating that from external feedback and external ways of how women's behaviors are judged, especially as leaders. But I think that's a big bucket. And I do want to, I also want to know about your own personal confidence journey and, you know, how would you tackle that question of, you feel confident? How has that evolved for you?
and what are some things that helped you?
Ellen (06:57)
Yeah,
I've been thinking about this a lot since we started EVEN because my confidence has skyrocketed. Like it's insane at insane levels now because everything we can do, we bring to bear, right? Through EVEN and we're having some great results.
My confidence was really strong as a child. I would put my mind to something. I'd try it. I'd give it a go. I'd learn, like I'd fail and feel okay about it.
I would work with my friends and, you know, do team projects together and felt good about it. And confidence just never felt to come up for me, really, honestly, until I started my journey as a manager. That's really when confidence started becoming a bit of a narrative for me.
Nora (07:51)
And how did it come up?
Ellen (07:52)
So I started telling myself, maybe it's something to do with me not appearing confident, or how I present myself or how I speak. And I was also getting feedback at that point
around, you don't seem very
assured or assertive or maybe you could articulate your point a little bit better.
Nora (08:12)
Hmm.
Ellen (08:15)
And I think because I had that achievement dynamic behind me as well, I was going, then I just need to try harder. I just need to do it. I need to do a better job. need to do more of the same. But I think this is to the point around that systemic
challenge that comes into confidence, right? Because there was so many things going on for me to think about that from a confidence angle. the work I was doing, the work I was doing was in a kind of whole new domain for the organisation I was working for. And so I was doing a lot of new things that could be quite threatening to a traditional organisation. My leadership role models were all male.
every single one of them were all male. I was in an interesting power dynamic. So I was telling myself interesting stories. And then I also had, I didn't really understand it at the time, a lot of different health.
layers going on and so that kind of
that resilience, that kind of health resilience just wasn't there. And you can see,
Nora (09:18)
Please not with you.
Ellen (09:20)
I thought it was me. So you can see how with like all those different layers, which everybody has, it's
Nora (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen (09:26)
not like a woe is me kind of narrative. Like that's so many women's lives. And so,
The way I went was, well, it's because I'm not confident. There's something going on there that it's about me.
Nora (09:40)
Which is so awful because this is exactly the kind of feedback that many women are getting is, you don't seem very assured or you don't seem very assertive or you don't feel very confident in this. And yet then on the flip side, the other feedback that women often get is if you are confident, if you do show up and ask for things directly, then you're labeled as aggressive.
you're perceived as not warm enough. And then straight away we're in that double bind, is it's sort of, you know, women's how we behave as leaders in organisations is always gendered. And if we're, if we're sort of staying consistent within the female norm, which is what you were there, which is sort of coming across as not super confident or not super assured, then we're consistent with gender stereotypes. But because the,
archetype for leader is male, we're actually not conforming to what's seen as leadership behaviors. If we are conforming to what's seen as leadership behaviors, that assertiveness, that directness, that decisiveness, then we're in conflict with the female stereotype and then we're sort of labeled in other ways. So we can never be right in organisations. And I think that sort of women see that and they go, well, I want to be liked, but if I'm liked, then I won't be perceived as a leader.
And I don't want to be called aggressive either. So what do I do? And I think that's exactly that double bind that many of us can go, well, there's no nowhere for me to actually to sort of go in a way that I can exist comfortably.
Ellen (11:08)
Yeah, absolutely. Like I think, what is it, role congruity theory, where there's like there's three different circles, right? You got male, typical male traits, typical female traits, and then leadership traits. Like 70 % of those leadership traits are all overlapped between leadership and male. And there's not, I think what's the, there's one, think, the one that's feminine traits and leadership traits is, there's two, collaborative and relational.
That's, they're our buckets. They're the ones that we've got.
Nora (11:38)
You can stay in that lane of collaborative
information, but you can't move outside of it. That's giving us lot of room to breathe.
Ellen (11:43)
Yeah.
Nora (11:46)
I
recently read a study where a group of researchers asked groups to select a leader.
sort of represent them and compete against another leader. And it was all on a task that all of these leaders that they could select from had done before. And interestingly, it was the men who overestimated their ability to perform
Ellen (12:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nora (12:14)
that task and who actually had, I guess, inconsistencies in recalling their own competence. So they overstated their competence.
competence in having conducted that task before, and the women understated their competence in having done that same task before. And so what happened is that in that experiment, women were selected as leaders much, much, much less often than would be consistent with their performance. And so I think, you when we talk about confidence, that there is a degree of, you know, men do seem to be more comfortable with stating their capability in an organisation.
Ellen (12:48)
well,
they weren't stating their capability, they were overestimating their capability. And so it's creating a gap, but at the same time.
What
are we aiming for here? Are we aiming for overconfidence and overestimation of capabilities and people not being self-aware enough? Or are we aiming for people who have a belief in their own capabilities and just being able to articulate that and show that, like I think we're favouring overconfidence, even though we're so good at spotting overconfidence. How many times, we've probably stopped counting, how many times have we been in a meeting where you can go, that, no, there.
overstating their case there. All right, you've said that for 10 minutes now, let's stop that.
Nora (13:30)
Yeah, stop it.
Ellen (13:31)
I think we have a problem with identifying what robust confidence looks like because we're so used to overconfident
Nora (13:40)
Mm. for comments. Yeah.
Ellen (13:44)
wankers now.
Nora (13:45)
Okay, so I mean, yes, you're absolutely right. I think we reward overconfidence. And the problem is that organisations both reward competence and select competence, but they also select based on what people say, or they also select based on overconfidence. And so ideally we want to get to organisations that have a more realistic view of what confidence looks like, and that stick more closely to actually evaluating based purely on competence.
The slight issue that I have there is there is still a link between those who have a higher degree of confidence and what those who have that confidence do in behavioral terms. So it's not just that an organisation selects you because of the fact that you talk about your skills in an overconfident way. It actually also means if you're overconfident or more confident,
you're going to ask for more. You're going to, when there's a failure, you're actually going to bounce back more quickly if you have a high degree of confidence. You're going to put your hand up for something, even though you may not be a hundred percent qualified. And these are unfortunately all of the behaviors that lead to career progression, that lead to promotion, that lead to salary outcomes.
Do we give women the tools to play that game and to spot when it's happening so that they can participate? Or do we actually just say we need to entirely just think about the processes in organisations? I don't know what's going to get us the results fastest.
Ellen (15:11)
I'm always going to favour both, but that you cannot ignore the need right now for women to be able to play that game. Like, and do it in a way that feels right for them. So,
Nora (15:26)
Hmm.
Ellen (15:27)
I would see the overconfidence that would come out from a lot of the
leader role models that I had. And I was like, that's not, I don't want do that.
Like I'm sitting here, I'm so bored. I'm thinking certain things about what they're saying. That's not how I want to do this. And so I think it's like how to play that game and play that game in a way that works for you and what you want. And at the same time, you cannot compromise on the fact that systems, organisations need to change.
And there are really, you know, there are things they can do that work like, for example, more objective measures in in what potential looks like. If we're thinking about that role congruity theory, if potential looks like a lot of male traits, well, then how do you identify potential within an organisation? Like, so there's some things and you can have those conversations and get really objective so that potential is not looked at subjectively.
But let's talk about this game. Let's talk about this game that we can help women navigate.
Nora (16:31)
I want to share a technique that I think is useful for all of us to actually think about, know, we've mentioned our own confidence journeys to some degree. And I think what was really interesting about yours is that you started out in the world as a confident child, and then it was navigating the workplace as a leader that actually made you start to doubt yourself because you were in an environment that
actually put up barriers that enabled that to happen. But I think it's worth, know, if we're walking around with these feelings of I'm not sure I'm confident enough to do this, it's worth looking at where they come from, right? And I think, you know, investigating are those feelings still appropriate for the moment that I'm in now? So I think a really interesting change for you is you were in an environment where you didn't have the role models.
where you had a certain level of pushback, where you had that status difference. And I think EVEN just now, if those feelings were persistent right now, I think it would be good to ask, are those stakeholders that undermine my confidence, are they still qualified to make an assessment of my capability today? Because we can often carry those voices of people that we encounter over the years. We can carry those voices around in our head with us. And often they're no longer EVEN real, relevant, or they don't actually matter to us.
But somehow the voice is sort of like, we keep them in there rent free, which is like, get the fuck out of there. You know, like those people that you encounter, they're not qualified to be there anymore.
Ellen (17:59)
No, and they're not. I think it's right and it's kind of what voices do you want there?
Nora (18:04)
from a confidence perspective, the people that I have in my head or kind of on demand when I need them, when I do feel a confidence low, it's of a cheerleader. And it's like this really kind, wise version of me that reminds me, know, for example, I always have this sort of before I walk into a big
presentation or anything like that. I actually have this like real visceral reaction of I actually want to just like leave the room. I want to get away from here. Like why did I agree to do this? I just don't want to get on the flight. I don't want to walk into that room. And I always have this sort of voice inside of me, which is my worst critic that says like, I'm just going to do like a quiet exit here and like just pretend this never happened.
And then the kind voice that sort of that I try to call on in those moments is the one that tells me actually you've done this probably like 250 times before you have the right techniques at your disposal and you have everything you need to do this and to do it well. And that's the voice that I like to have with me in those in those moments. Or another one that I think is really effective. And I mean, we all might want to have our own, you know, kind of compliment of of mentors in our head.
But the other one is really nice. She's like super fierce. So she sort of gives me reminders of, you actually thinking big enough? You know, why are you holding back from this thing that feels a bit scary? And she just goes like, what's the worst that could happen?
So those are my two favorite voices, the kind kind one and the really audacious, brave one if I'm feeling a low confidence moment or a moment where I'm questioning whether I have the confidence for this thing that I'm about to do.
Ellen (19:45)
I love that. I love that. They seem like very nice voices. They seem like really, like...
They seem like voices that they, I'm assuming that they've gotten stronger as you've kept using them as well. As you've gone into those moments that terrify you and you've listened to those voices and you've already done the risk assessment as well with maybe not your nice, so nice voices. And then the nice mentors have kind of kept you true and kept you through that moment.
Nora (20:13)
Yeah. And the more you exercise them, like you said, the better they get. So I have a really harsh self-critic, as you know, I'm definitely my worst enemy. And when I look at my performance, I always go, that was a 60%, even though objectively it was probably more like an 85. But that is my own harsh kind of critic. And what's really nice is those voices, when I've, those voices have become good at recognising when the critic is showing up and they kind of go, okay, thank you. We've...
We've heard you. It's time for you to like, yes, you're here. Thank you. But we don't really need you right now. Like, see you later. So that just that short circuiting of that voice is becoming much faster. And I think that's actually really effective in in feeling more confident in the moment.
Ellen (20:56)
One of my favourite techniques I've found that works for me is it would be just having that hard truth of what I've achieved on a page. Now, EVEN that works quite well because everything we produce is out there.
Nora (21:11)
Yeah.
Ellen (21:13)
But previously before that, I would make sure I was capturing those successes
pretty much in the moment or at least that day. And so...
Nora (21:22)
like a bragging folder
or maybe that's a bad term because it shouldn't be bragging.
Ellen (21:25)
What was it called? What did you call it?
Nora (21:26)
Some people call it a bragging folder, but I actually think that's
Ellen (21:28)
Yes!
Nora (21:29)
like making it what it shouldn't be. It's a reality folder.
Ellen (21:33)
Yeah,
exactly. And it would just be what happened, what got done, what the real results were. So I'm talking about like revenue or the impact for people were the clients, all that type of stuff. And you can look back through that, even if it's just from the three months of the year that you've started doing it and you go, well, okay.
That's interesting. And the other thing that would also help me do is actually refine what I then wanted. So I'd
Nora (21:58)
Hmm.
Ellen (21:59)
go, well, I was capturing this as an achievement, which is great. But now I've done that a few times. Feeling pretty good about that. I'm actually moving on to something else now. And so yes, you can think of it as journaling and reflection, but really I saw it as just making sure I was capturing my performance because I knew I needed that in the moments where I felt wobbly.
Nora (22:22)
Yeah, I love that. And I think that's also close to what we learned recently from one of our experts, Dr. Terri Simpkin, who delivered
Ellen (22:28)
and
Nora (22:29)
a sprint on the imposter phenomenon in the EVEN community. And I love the concept that she introduced us to, which is that when you actually experience imposter phenomenon, you're unable to see your successes in the rear view mirror. So they're either foggy or broken or whatever.
I think with the language, something I see quite often is, you know, members that we work with find it hard to find themselves in the success story.
And again, that's not their own fault. That's often because we've been conditioned that you shouldn't be talking about yourself. You shouldn't make yourself the hero of the story. And Australia, especially this whole tall poppy thing.
Ellen (23:07)
Remember,
we've only got collaborative or relational. That's all we've got.
Nora (23:12)
No achievement and no
I in this. I think it helps for somebody to help you to separate. Yes, it might have been a team effort, but what did you actually do? Did you help to structure the team's workflow? Did you keep the team motivated and calm during a period of organizational change and restructuring? Just really try with somebody to find the what did I do in this? Yeah, we need that reminder sometimes.
Ellen (23:37)
Yeah. It's definitely people that you trust and that actually will help you with that confidence. they can be like so many different people, but they can understand either what you're doing or what you want to do or what you've done and really help you with that.
those kind of questions that we can start asking ourselves.
Nora (23:57)
it is a lifelong pursuit for many of us. But I think just understanding what's actually going on and why some of this is happening is certainly a beginning. And then knowing some of the ways that you can hold yourself in that, that you can investigate what are some of the stories that you're telling yourself? Do they still serve you? Are they ready to be challenged?
it's like for me, I can still remember that's where for me, where a lot of this has come from in terms of like my thoughts on success, my thoughts on you don't be too overconfident. It actually started like decades ago and therefore it is often a lifelong pursuit to learn how to build your own strategies to recognize.
when you're just repeating these messages that you've internalized from like 30 years ago,
Ellen (24:44)
there are so many things that women can do and there are so many things that are happening within organisations around how to think about leadership differently. It's not enough, but it is getting there. And so I think, you know, the message I want to leave anyone listening to this right now is you can do something about how you are feeling and you can...
create the narratives that work for you and that you want for yourself.
You are not stuck if you don't feel confident.
Nora (25:16)
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with women. We've talked about this again and again. We don't believe that women need to be fixed. You don't need to be fixed if you're listening to this. You definitely, you are incredible.
Ellen (25:26)
Absolutely, and I think just with how many women we meet, like every single woman that I have met that has come into EVEN is incredible. They'll tell us about what's going on in their lives, what they've achieved in their career. So I can very confidently say that women are incredible. Like they are incredible what they can do.
and so these are, these are some of the strategies that can help, can help you play a better game. and
these are some of the things that are going on in systems and to help you kind of navigate the space of both of those areas.